Its right there. The book makes no mention of sin, the need for a Savior, Jesus life, His death at the cross, or the empty tomb. Kay Warren, Rick Warrens wife, added insult to injury on Mothers Day and gave the Sunday message. Know Ephesians 4. You prop up a gospel that nobody can live up to so you feel superior. So the Southern Baptist Convention gave it the boot, Q&A: Talking about the Southern Baptist sex abuse scandal with Pastor P.J. Catholicism: https://thesetapartwalk.com/catholicism-is-not-biblical-christianity/ However, for the five years my husband and I spent as Southern Baptists, it seemed like Pastor Warren got a pass for anything questionable about his church. |, Christian Budgeting: There Really Is A Biblical Way, How To Sabotage Your Marriage: Unrealistic Expectations, News And The Willful Ignorance Of Christians - The Set-Apart Walk, Your Church Might Just Be A Social Club - The Set-Apart Walk, Lutheranism Is Biblical, Right? Put some of your training online, or give volunteers a handout. COVID had its impact on our Saddleback staff because we were not able to all be together in the offices. But churches like Saddleback lure people in with friendliness and self-help styled sermons. (Im not kidding. If only you can use your wisdom appropriately. One of the biggest problems in the Church today is tolerance of false teachers. Adam Greenway, who served as the president of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary from February 2019 to September 2022, was one of many who argued that the decision sets a bad precedent: There seems to be a sentiment in todays SBC that wants to purify the Convention, and sees women pastors as a huge threat to biblical authority and a slippery slope toward liberalism and drift, he wrote on Twitter. You might not like 1 Timothy 2:12, but it exists. It also says that an overseer a pastor is to be faithful to his wife. And Im glad to see that you understand the importance of salvation. If there are 47,000 Southern Baptist churches and 20 years from now you only have 20,0000 men who want to be pastors, there are going to be some tough decisions to be made. The Southern Baptist Convention decided Tuesday to oust Saddleback Church, the second-largest congregation of the convention, because it has a female pastor. Someone or some groups of people formally submitted Saddleback Church for inquiry by the credentials committee to examine whether or not the church had fallen out of close fellowship with Southern Baptists. We actually changed some of our terminology: Instead of considering yourself the leader of this small group, could you just host a group in your home and facilitate? Just that simple language change made a difference. Lots of people know the Truth, but there is only one place to find it. CR has twelve steps like AA, but now each step has a tacked-on Bible verse. I love your positivity and focus on that. You are allowed your opinion, as am I. I am not seeking to tear down another Christian. It was a very exciting time and an insanely crazy time. Why is that so bad? What drives you to write and answer those above? He has limited time, limited focus, limited boundaries. His own website says he started Saddleback as a church for people who didnt like church. My post is warning against a teacher who is so seeker-sensitive that he started a church to appease people who werent into church. If not, why not? Celebrate Recovery shares how to be born again, but the programs focus is the program. We may not only be losing Saddleback Church and Rick Warren. You are a true Berean. I find it incredibly sad when Christians seek to tear each other down. Have people been saved at Saddleback? Although we do not see eye to eye on this topic, I do pray you have many blessings in the years to come. You make theology your God and replace Grace with your endless list of grievances. I find that it doesnt matter whether youre in a big church or a small church, a rural church or an urban church, you can burn out no matter what your situation. You will also see the four steps a new believer should take. He makes people who prefer authoritarian evangelical structures bristle. Pastors need to have life outside of ministry. That doesnt mean I cant draw attention to dangerous or lukewarm teachers and churches. You write well, and you are obviously passionate about your faith.) If Christians love their Ted Talk pastor more than Gods Word and His instructions, then I dont know what to say. Also, I recommend that we be careful about accepting any ministrys recorded decisions for Christ. Just because you like something doesnt make it good, accurate, or biblical. Im a pastors wife and mother to 5 children. The work in the nursery, on the missions committee, etc., is just as important as a pastors calling. Pastors can ask questions like, Whats the state of my soul? Am I drained? Am I actually leading others while running on empty myself? Am I more irritable? Often those are signs of unhealthy motivation. I could go on. Looking at your list, though, Id say most of what you listed is unbiblical. I dont prop up a gospel no one can live up to. My concerns about Rick Warren and Saddleback are not about mistakes, though. A generation ago, a pastor was the only voice in his community. Rick Warren and celebrity pastors: https://thesetapartwalk.com/rick-warren-and-the-problem-with-celebrity-pastors/. Ministry, no matter what size the church, is a team sport. Women need a biblically-minded womans voice in the mix of progressive nonsense. They finally came to believe on there own they cant do it but that there is one who can and will help them if they ask, and that one is god. . However, I will say that my husband is the pastor of a small, rural Baptist church in Wisconsin. ( The Desert Sun Video) The top pastor of Southwest Church in Indian Wells was asked to resign because he refused to condemn homosexuality, he explained in his resignation letter. A couple of examples include Luke 11:37-54 (the woes) and Luke 13:14-17 (calling out hypocrites). Let me first clarify something. Im definitely not straining gnats by pointing out that a world famous pastor gives a weak gospel or maybe even none at all. Ive seen people completely renewed after salvation. Large pictures of him living his best life now while describing him in such a way that it feels a little cultish. There is nothing I have said that has been against the Lord. And I am so happy that you found a church that digs into the meat of the Word. 3 Ways to Maintain Sanity in Ministry by Dr. Jeff Forrey. Im not sure people even know them when they see them. Guess what.., the men you criticize are actually in the trenches fighting fir the souls of men. "COVID revealed a fundamental weakness in the Church," the pastor recently told Relevant magazine in an interview. But, yall, it is so cringey. An example of this eisegesis can be seen with the following verse: Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.. Sadly, he misuses Scripture, apparently affirms female pastors, and he does not give a clear gospel message (sin and death included), despite having a huge audience. 1.) A true Church of the living God with Christ as the head will thrive in any situation. I write because I have seen and heard so much false teaching that women take in like candy over the years. There have been occasions throughout history where it happened. Whats a good first step for you to take?. In this case, it was a theological issue of women serving in pastoral roles. I invite you to read the whole of Romans 14, I hope it will help you. Discover how CareLeader.org can help you provide biblical and compassionate pastoral care for struggling and hurting people in your church. Maybe it is. Face it, no one loves you as much as you do. Just WOW!!! If you could just manage your environment better, you wouldnt burn out. How did you learn that you would be appointed one of the first female pastors for Saddleback Church? First, you say its OK that I have my personal opinions, but you then correct me for sharing them. If hes the one whos always doing the work of the ministry, he will become the bottleneck of the church. You are 100% correct! His church can have a wildly popular ministry. Pastors have to look people in the eye and challenge them to step up and serve. If a whole post on the subject is wrong, then I wonder how much is acceptable to you. Benjamin Cole is a former Southern Baptist pastor in Texas who has been attending Southern Baptist conventions for nearly 30 years. I was 26 years old, and I am the first born-again person in my family. We can always cloak it in God talk so that it sounds spiritual, but the truth is that personal ambition or an unhealthy need for significance is what really drives us. And he does this by making the gospel and his church easier for the world to tolerate, but its so watered down it is barely recognizable. A full body orgasm at the L.A. Phil? Rather, I am asking people to reconsider Rick Warren and Saddleback. The standards given in the book are based on Warrens experience. It would be wonderful if leaders in the SBC and/or members of his church would pull him aside, but they either havent or it hasnt worked. Tim Challies, however, was not impressed with The Purpose Driven Life, and he wrote a thoughtful review on it. CR offers an opportunity to say the prayer of salvation (which is not a real thing, by the way), and shares testimonies about salvation that are more about recovery than Jesus. Church growth can be through the roof. Without looking at the context, these verses seem overbearing. There is so many different Churches(Buildings ,with preaching going on).What about Catholic Nuns? Obviously there have been generations where persecution has been hotter and more intense, but there are more complexities for a pastor today. On hearing of Saddleback's decision to allow women to become pastors, some Southern Baptist ministers had conflicting opinions. (If youre not, then you can ignore me here.) By the end of the 2030s, though, Saddleback likely will be just one of the hundreds of SBC churches ordaining women pastors. Paul wanted to stick to the Faith when others beliefs crept in. So, once again, we see a poorly given gospel message with more focus on Saddlebacks product than anything else. Rick Warren and his wife started Saddleback with a vision to plant a church for people who didnt like church. I could tell you oodles about the church history because Saddleback loves itself some Saddleback. I one of those theologically challenged slobs who actually was saved at a CR. Bill Hybels, senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church, said that in ministry youve got to be able to discern the difference between good hard and destructive hard. Good hard is healthy sacrifice. I was always preoccupied. I sometimes look back at that season and tell people that it was both the most intoxicating and toxic season of my life. The program also consists of eight principles for recovery from the Beatitudes. If anything, the scripture additions they use in their program only make it harder for the addict. With its main campus in Lake Forest, Saddleback Church has grown to 14 locations in Southern California, with an average weekly attendance of 30,000, and more than 7,000 small groups meeting in . Baptism This is a good thing. Apparently, Warren plucked it out of Job without thought of the true meaning of the text. Its also great to see you backing up your thoughts with Scripture. Your opinion can influence someone who possibly is thinking about attending church to the first time, and discouraging them. Thank you so much for doing what you do. You have no cause to be angry at me. Its not about salvation or the gospel or Jesus, its about admitting they are powerless, and asking God to help. These critics are blind and need the Holy Spirit to open their eyes. 2.) They water down the gospel, downplay sin, and cater to worldly preferences instead of focusing on biblical principles. (I dont promote my own church because I encourage local church membership.) Get Connected Yes, but if somehow you managed to get saved through this clumsy attempt at sharing the gospel, you have no guidance in how to find a church besides Saddleback. Kudos to you! The page is reminiscent of a fan page on a boy band website. But by the end of the 2030s, the controversy will melt into consensus. In other books, he refers to woman that held churches in their houses, such as Nympha in Colossians 4:15 and Chloe in 1 Corinthians 1:11. If you dont, in the end youre not going to do much good for your church or ministry if you burn out. Here is the Associated Press:. 1. For one, you called me a man. They start acting as though they dont have limits. I prayerfully consider what is said to me. I suggest you read my post on calling out false teachers. We are all different and take many approaches on teaching Gods word; thats whats most important. Its weird that you say youve been helped at Celebrate Recovery no thanks to [me]. Why would I have a hand in your recovery? My prayer is that people turn back to solid Bible teaching in their local churches. His teachings and poor handling of Scripture are corrupting the gospel, assuring some people of a salvation they cannot have yet because they have not recognized their wickedness and need for salvation, and/or made believers who follow him unequipped to handle the Word because he doesnt consistently use it correctly. Make it simple for them. Third, you told me that I might have stopped people from finding God. I also must mention that your ability to maintain your poise when being attacked was nothing short of impressive and showed true Christian character. So it was a huge growth for us. The selection of Andy Wood and his wife, Stacie, to succeed Rick and Kay Warren as leaders of the California-based Saddleback Church has triggered "shock" and "fear" in some who have worked with Wood over concerns over what they characterize as leadership abuse. A scroll through Twitter is all you have to do to find out the number of intemperate pastors Southern Baptists have. I will be praying for you. Im not hammering anyone. (All the information I share in this section is from the Saddleback Church website, unless otherwise noted.). My name is Julie. If you want to investigate this issue, Id start HERE. A grieving teen. Although Paul discouraged women having overt, authoritative involvement in the church, he acknowledges the female workers in the church and their efforts to further the message of Christ. Its not minor to openly and unrepentantly disobey Gods Word by ordaining female pastors. The church faces short-lived criticism but no practical consequences. Tell us about your role at Saddleback Church. It could be just a place that entertains and tickles peoples ears. I went to Saddleback in 2000, and Rick Warren wrote The Purpose Driven Life in 2002. You must be new here. what about Jews for Jesus pastors .Unitarian Transgender Churches. Im not sure if you understand what straining gnats and swallowing camels means. Warrens church not only committed this act, but they publicly celebrated it. I personally cannot stand behind them, but certainly there are plenty of people who are true believers in those churches. Does the rubber meet the road? The church, led by founding pastor Rick Warren, made the announcement via Facebook, saying the best days are ahead of the congregation. In Romans 16:1, Paul mentions Phoebe, a female deacon or servant in the church. https://thesetapartwalk.com/why-i-wont-apologize-for-calling-out-false-teachers/. I can appreciate that my blog is not your taste. I know Im just a regular person and havent started my own female-ordaining mega-church, but maybe having access to Gods Word should have been a bit sooner? 4 Who are you to judge anothers servant? Its amazing how that inability to only think of ourselves can be changed with the power of salvation. Every time I receive a comment on this post, I close my eyes and click on it with hesitancy. The book, itself, is not born of Scripture despite containing over 1,200 Bible quotes. Im pondering your post, not pounding it. What Christ is Warren suggesting people accept? Follow any of the links below to read biblical responses to you queries. I was aware of Warrens heretical practices years ago. CR also encourages participants to improve their self-esteem and self-image. A little Joseph Smith, maybe. Youre not a good Christian because you are mean. 3.) Those that fail just really arent ready to quit, and those that actually realize from rock bottom a god in Heaven will help, always can quit. If anything, you didnt go far enough, but you were 100% correct. People only have so much time, and if they say yes to your churchs volunteer opportunity, theyre saying no to something else. You should be baptized, but maybe you should learn how to discern a healthy Christian church from the, ahem, not so good ones You dont want to get baptized somewhere youll later regret. But I find it likely that Rick Warrens retirement makes it easier for people who have long wanted Saddleback out to pursue it. He is now dedicated to helping leaders live and lead from a healthy soul. Julie, Thank you for posting this and calling this out. There is a difference between appropriate healthy sacrifice and an unhealthy approach to ministry that is often driven out of people pleasing or need for approval. GriefShare is a powerful, Christ-centered grief recovery program. The pastor of Southwest Church resigned over his stance on gay marriage. At the same time, the Bible isnt really open to multiple interpretations in most places. An anxious wife. Thanks. What church do you attend? His congregant, John Baker, created it with Warrens support. There is no such thing as a coincidence in Southern Baptist confession of faith. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information, Saddleback Church ordained women. Some of that was because of the pace and the demands, but some of it was also because I didnt lead myself very well. God bless you! There are endless arguments against this teaching, but they are all just grasping at straws to fight against a plain biblical teaching that does not suit modern-day sensibilities. Females from cover to cover in the Bible have been used by God, and they will continue to be used by Him in the future, as they are obedient in following his leading in their lives. Yes, theology is important and doctrine matters. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. Thank you for commenting. Theres an obvious assumption the reader has no clue who Jesus is or why He is important. No, I havent contacted Pastor Warren or the SBC. I was concerned with the beliefs section of the site, but Saddleback presents itself as quite doctrinally sound. (Romans 14:1,22). You dont know hopeless until youve been that hopeless. Were just on a very dangerous course right now. Why would they like it? Then I have them circle the one thats absolutely the most important for keeping their tank filled. Otherwise, what is it that we believe? Simply put, Im a Bible-believing Christian woman. My job as the pastor of discipleship was to lead the campaign for Saddleback. She was recently named a teaching pastor and three other women were ordained as associate pastors. Because as weve seen with Beth Moore, Mothers Day appears to negate the strict biblical mandates of pastoral ministry in liberal American churches. I havent seen anything about the quote, and none of the official CR materials Ive gone through have described meditation that way. But it was a startling turn of events when the SBC . But lets quickly look at the most commonly used scripture to explain this position. If youre not convinced of the importance of marking and avoiding false teachers, then I suggest you read my post on why we should call them out. Holy Communion!!!! I pray for him and other pastors often. Even megachurches. Is it because people struggle with loving themselves enough? All rights reserved. Saddleback is the exception. Any addictions program will have a great deal of self-reflection and self-awareness. Men and women, according to Scripture, are equal in the sight of the Lord. Third, experiences dont trump the Bible. That is sin. I really appreciate your thought on this issue. Im not going to ignore the wolf in the room for anyones comfort. Many blessings. Hi, Debbie. What version of the Bible is the most original? In my tiny corner of the internet, I am sharing concerns about a hugely popular pastor. Of course your theology probably believes that battle is futile because your sovereign uncaring god had already condemned all but those who believe as you to hell anyway. I agree with you Pepper. Saddleback Church, one of the largest churches in the Southern Baptist Convention and home to influential pastor Rick Warren, ordained three women as staff pastors this past weekend, a move. Rick changed the culture of the community where he lives, and theres nothing that makes a backward Baptist angrier than the church growth success of someone like Rick Warren. Im not the first or last Christian to address this topic. Although a valid right of yours to disagree with me, it doesnt mean Im not allowed to speak. No thanks to you. Its a short, tidy article explaining why pastoral ministry is exclusively male. A Southern Baptist pastor on thinking, talking and praying about the recent sex abuse scandal. Thank you. 4 Reasons You Need a Break by Lane Sebring He was buried and resurrected 3 days later, defeating death and offering us the free gift of salvation. Usually, theyre way off base, and many end up in the trash because they are just personal insults directed at me. Snide comments, sarcasm & prideful nit picking spread nothing but negativity. Also, although you might feel like Im being judgmental, its necessary. Another missing gospel, a focus on something other than Jesus, and mishandling Scripture make for another gospel failing. Without all that information, it certainly is not the Jesus of the Bible. To end as I began, I wouldnt attend saddleback (or any SBC) but the body of Christ is built up by all its members bringing their diversity of gifts. Youre describing issues common to many mega churches, and you might consider that youll see these people in Heaven one day. It played out the most during those years at Saddlebacknot with my fellow staff members but at home. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. A man battling chronic anger. Im actually a little excited about Saddleback ordaining women because this gives the SBC no choice but to address female preaching. Difficult is to recognize your own mistakes. But thank you for considering what I wrote and writing a thoughtful comment. is loved by everyone, then I need to look closely for the problem. Nobody else was responsible. I too felt things were off with Warrens works and when I started to study the Word in relation to Warrens teachings I found his work to be eisegesical. Everyone has rights to opinions but its not necessary to have to post them. The accusation there is that I take great pains to avoid minor infractions/offenses, but I accept big sins. I attended Saddleback for many years but so happy to now be in a church that teaches the Bible in depth, verse by verse. Youve made some assumptions about who I am and what I believe. Witnesses offer conflicting accounts, Mars Voltas lead singer broke with Scientology and reunited with the band. For Rick to do what he did in Southern California required some different strategies and different ways of communicating, and that was unsettling to traditional hard-line Southern Baptists. And it fails the people who go through the program whether they leave in recovery or not. He is now dedicated to helping leaders live and lead from a healthy soul. I myself did actually enjoy The Purpose Driven life as a new Christian and have enjoyed many of Rick Warrens sermons (on line) but having read through your points, Im re-thinking a lot and will be re-searching his teachings a bit more in depth.
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